Inside The Mind Of A Wrestling Referee w/ James Greenwood

Here at Grapple Theory we’ve spoken to plenty of wrestlers, but now we’re taking a dive into the mind of the sometimes forgotten people in black and white stripes that hold the entire match together.

In this special interview we chat to James Greenwood, an experienced referee who will be a well known name to any BritWres show regulars.

Grapple Theory: When did you first get into wrestling?
James Greenwood: When I was around 10 years old, I watched WCW on TV with my dad on a Friday night, I was amazed at these larger than life heroes, Sting, Goldberg, DDP and the storylines just hooked me. Time to bond with my dad as our little thing was pretty cool.

All my friends in school watched WWF, but we didn't have Sky so I never really saw it unless I went to a friends house, but we had access to WCW and I thought it was brilliant.

GT: So, when did you decide that refereeing was the part of wrestling you wanted to get into?
JG: I was always a smaller kid, and watching it I knew I wouldn't be a wrestler, as it would hurt, and I didn't think I'd ever have the physique.

But seeing refs like Charles Robinson (He had blond hair, I had blond hair... that was my connection to him haha) and realising that the match wouldn't work without the ref, I knew they were just as important. Also, it's the best seat in the house. I'm a wrestling fan at heart, and this way you're guaranteed to have the best view!

GT: Was that always the plan? Or did you want to have an in-ring fighting career?
JG: Never. Wrestling hurts! I'm too much of a wimp. I always wanted to be a referee, although I knew I would inevitably end up taking a bump or two over my time.

GT: How do you go about becoming a referee to begin with?
JG: So, I first asked at PCW years ago when they opened their training school and they said I need to train as a wrestler partly so I can understand how to take bumps safely, but it also helps with conditioning and the psychology of matches.

Unfortunately at the time I had two jobs and no transport and literally couldn't make it to any training sessions. When Fighting Spirit opened up in 2017 it was a 15 minute drive, I had less jobs and I had a car, so it worked perfectly! I told Gibson and Drake on my first day I wanted to be a ref, but I trained in the wrestling side too.

GT: How does referee training differ from wrestling training?
JG: A lot less bumping! For referees it's a lot more about positioning. Ensuring I'm out of the way of the wrestlers, cameras, photographers, audience as well as being in place for the right moments, pinfalls, submissions etc. It's being there without really being there.

GT: How long did it take from start of training to your first match?
JG: A lot shorter than I expected! So, Fighting Spirit had their first showcase about two months after starting the training. There were a few of the trainees in matches with experienced veterans. I'd asked Gibson and Drake if I could ref on the show, but they said they were going to get someone in for the first one, which was completely understandable.

I'd got to the training school several hours earlier to help set up and they told me their ref couldn't make it and if I was OK reffing the whole show! So I immediately drove home, got my white shirt and black bowtie and black suit pants and drove back and reffed the whole show by myself. A nerve-wracking but incredible experience. Straight in the deep end!

GT: And do you remember what that opening match was/how it went?
JG: The opening matches were part of a mini tournament so it was James Drake and Screwface followed by Zack Gibson and Sam Bailey! I've written every match I've ever done to keep a record.

My main hiccup that haunts me to this day still, is I went far too fast on a count out on the outside during a match, and both wrestlers were still fighting on the outside at a count of nine, I didn't have the wherewithal to come out with the wrestlers, or use discretion, or come to slow down the count and work with them, so I just panicked and started the count again for no reason whatsoever and I remember some of the fans front row kicking off about it, and rightfully so. But because of that, moment I've made sure to work around situations like that! Other than that though I just remember being absolutely buzzing!

GT: We know that refs need to be in on what's happening in a match, how much do you discuss each match with wrestlers beforehand?
JG: I'm not sure I can tell you how the sausage is made! Haha. Mostly it's just anything I need to be aware of, like any major spots or angles so I don't get in the way and can act accordingly.

Other than that I mostly leave them to it. Sometimes I will remind them of certain rules for gimmick matches/tag matches and things like that so they're able to plan any spots.

GT: At an indie level, how much of each bout are you aware of in terms of what is meant to happen?
JG: I'll usually have a good idea of what's going on, because it's a form of theatre, we need to keep everyone hooked and we all need to sing from the same hymn sheet. If we're not all aware of what's meant to happen then the performance won't be as good as it can be?

GT: Do you ever get distracted by either the match or the crowd?
JG: Occasionally the crowd will try to jump ahead with numbers when you're counting the wrestlers on the outside, it can be a pain but you've just got to focus and drown them out. Obviously I get the usual abuse when I'm 'blind' and don't spot any cheating - but I don't have eyes in the back of my head! Haha.

GT: What are the most memorable matches you've officiated?
JG: I've been so lucky to be part of some incredible matches. Hangman Page vs PAC was a big one. AEW were due to have their first official PPV - Double Or Nothing - the following weekend but there was some sort of issue where they couldn't have the match on the PPV.

Well, instead, PAC was scheduled to have a match at Wrestle Gate Pro and his opponents were injured/couldn't make it. Well, PAC said he was going to have the night off and then Hangman Page came out and they had their match ahead of time.

The place was electric, no one knew he was there, he had only turned up halfway through the actual show so barely any of the Wrestle Gate team knew! There were very few people who knew what was going on, so that was a very special moment. And I technically officiated one of the very first matches in AEW history!

Other than that, an NWA World's Championship defence by Nick Aldis was pretty big as there is so much heritage there! That was definitely an honour!

Being part of IMPACT Wrestling's return to the UK at Wrestling MediaCon and officiating the whole second half of their iPPV was a big moment for me. Tim Thatcher vs Chris Hero at Progress as well, as I'm a huge fan of both men.

There have been so many more matches that I've been proud to be part of, at the moment there is a great series of matches between Lizzy Evo and Alexxis Falcon at TNT and I'm good friends with both of them. To see them absolutely kill it, in our home promotion and be part of those matches is pretty special too.

GT: You mention Lizzy Evo, Alexxis Falcon and TNT there. Talk to me about the scene in Liverpool because it seems to be buzzing right now
JG: After all that has happened the past few years, things aren't the same. I think though it's for the better. Don't forget, 10-15 years ago when the bigger names were starting out, the crowds were small then and they built up as the wrestlers got bigger and more popular.

Now a lot of them have moved on to worldwide promotions/retired/been cast out (and rightfully so) it's starting again, a lot of those fans have moved on as well due to their favourites moving on or being hurt by the actions of people they looked up to, which again is completely fair and understandable.

But the cycle is starting again, new fans are starting to come and watch wrestling and they will have new favourites, they may not know the older guys, but will come and see the likes of Kameron Solas, Soner Dursun, Lizzy Evo, Alexxis Falcon, Big Guns Joe and get hooked, they'll tell their friends and they'll come along and see the likes of Sinergy, Shreddy, Chase Alexander, Gene Munny, Visage then they'll share on social media and then it might bring people to see the likes of Tom Thelwell, Gia Adams, JJ Webb, Nico Angelo, LK Mezinger and the likes.

And it builds and builds. It will take some time, but I firmly believe that the absolute talent of these young men and women and hopefully a safer and more secure business will build to a new golden age. It will take time, but we'll get there. And somehow I'm lucky enough to be in the middle of it as the North West is such a hot bed of talent!

GT: Have there been matches that have been so good that, again, you've been distracted and just though 'wow this is an incredible match' and had to bring yourself back down to earth?
JG: Of course, the likes of Ridgeway vs Tim Thatcher is one that comes to mind. Anything that is technical wrestling that I can see up close is just incredible. Other matches with high spots and drama though I've got to be more on my toes and moving out of the way so there's no time to study what they're doing!

GT: What's it like being a wrestling referee when all the praise is going on the wrestlers, do you feel left out of that?
JG: I appreciate the praise I do get to be honest, quite often (and it shouldn't happen) but I do get chants when coming to the ring, the focus should be on the wrestlers as they're the ones putting their lives on the line, I'm just the grease in the wheels making sure that the thing runs smoothly.

But it is nice to hear when someone thinks I've done well, and the wrestlers often request me to do their matches which is praise enough as they trust me to work with them which is really nice.

GT: What's the longest trip you've taken to referee a match?
JG: A couple of years back, I think it was Attack! in London, I left at 8 in the morning as I had to do a pick up on the Wirral, then to Manchester, then to Wakefield and then down to London. Then the same but in reverse on the way back. I got home about 7am, I was extremely tired, that one done me in for a few days!

GT: Do you have any other memorable moments from refereeing matches?
JG: I think just being in the ring when people win their first title, like John McGregor at Futureshock was a genuinely emotional moment, the pop was unbelievable and it choked me up. Any of the moments at the Tuesday Night Graps/Schadenfreude and Friends shows as well were fantastic as it's like The Twilight Zone of wrestling, those shows were so much fun and utterly bonkers. Drew Parker vs The Invisible Man in an I Quit match was definitely up there!

GT: For a lot of wrestlers the dream is to be signed by a major promotion. Does the same apply to refs and specifically yourself?
JG: Of course, that would be amazing, my goal was always to have that photo at WrestleMania with all the referees on the stage before the event. Every year I see that photo and smile because they've reached the pinnacle!

I've been lucky enough to work for IMPACT, but to be able to do what I do on a larger stage would be amazing. I'm very lucky though to have had all the opportunities I've had over the past 4 years.

GT: If you were in the ring what would your ring name, entrance music and finisher be?
JG: So when we started training, my brother and I used to work on a lot of tag bits, he would be Superstar Stevie Avalon and I was Jumpin' Jimmy Avalon (I used to be in a band called Phoenix of Avalon) the finisher I was working on was a springboard leg lariat, as I'm a big Zack Ryder/Matt Cardona fan.

I wouldn't even dream of trying to hit a springboard anything now though, I'm far too old and there's too much risk of breaking my arms/wrists which I need for reffing! Entrance music would be Bad Sheep by Metric, otherwise known as the song Clash at Demonhead sang in Scott Pilgrim, absolute banger!

GT: And what would be your dream match?
JG: I wouldn't know a dream match to wrestle, but to officiate I would LOVE to do a 60 minute Iron Man match. I've done a couple of 30 minute ones but I feel a 60 would really push me to my limit.

I think any mix between Jericho, CM Punk, Bryan Danielson and PAC. Any of those mixed together for 60 minutes would be incredible!

You can follow James on Twitter and Instagram on @JGreenwoodRef

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